| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Freedomfuel |
Posted - Jun 11 2004 : 11:26:36 AM
There have been plans for water-cell conversions of cars on the internet but it would be impossible to build a working water car from these plans because there is an essential feature missing which is present in Dingle's car. I believe that the authors of these planss are either deliberately trying to provide disinformation to discourage further investigation by the curious or else they wish to protect themselves in the event that their authorship could be proved. If the latter is the case then maybe they are hoping someone will be intelligent enough to to supply the missing piece of the jigsaw.
The Dingle car does not burn Hydrogen and Oxygen made by hydrolysis as has been supposed. In fact it burns Hydrogen and Nitrous Oxide. The latter is produced by an electric discharge in the empty space of the reactor under conditions of low pressure caused by the induction stroke of the engine. The combustion of Nitrous Oxide and Hydrogen has the following properties:
1. The combustion of Nitrous Oxide and Hydrogen (N2 + 1/2O2) is an endothermic process which absorbes heat and has a heat of formation of 74 kJ. In practice the engine runs cool and the exhaust is cool. The radiator can freeze up requiring anti-freeze in the coolant.
2. When equal parts of Hydrogen and Nitrous Oxide are ignited the volume of gas decreases by a half plus some water. In practice this means that the charge in the cylinder implodes rather than explodes and the timing of the engine has to be advanced by 20 to 80 degrees.
3. Nitrous Oxide contains three times as much Oxygen as does air so that when Hydrogen combusts in it there is an unusually strong explosion. This may allow the gas flow from hydrolysis to be sufficient to power the car.
4. a considerable amount of water is evaporated in the reactor due to the low pressure caused by the engine's induction stroke. This water vapour will condense in the cylinders and give up it's latent heat of evaporation to the combustion of Nitrous Oxide and Hydrogen.
The electrolysis of water (H20 = H2 + 1/2O2) an the formation of Nitrous Oxide (1/2N2 + 1/2O2) are also endothermic reactions with a heat of formation of 242 kJ and 90 kJ respectively. In theory it ought to be possible to recycle all of the Nitrogen and water from the exhaust making it a closed system, but Dingle for some reason has to refill the reactor from an on-board water tank.
Where does the energy come from to power the vehicle? I believe the energy comes from ambient heat in the space surrounding the engine. The temperature differential between the inside and the outside of the engine compartment would be insufficient to accelerate a car to 200km/h. I believe that the cooling system is functioning as a heat pump supplying thermal energy to the engine and that the power of the engine depends on the rate that heat is pumped into it as well as the difference in the temperature between the outside and inside of the engine compartment. This would make it analogous to the Stirling engine which uses an external heat source to expand a fixed masss of gas in it's cylinders. Unlike the Stirling engine the Dingle Engine is not a Carnot cycle engine and is therefore much more efficient. It can alsos extract energy from low temperature sources. This hypothesis is supported by the fact that there are reports that water cars with aluminium engine blocks function better tahtn cars with iron engine blocks. If this hypothesis is true then I would expect water cars to be more successful in hot countries and this is confirmed by the fact that there are said to be many water cars in Australia.
It may be the case in cooler regions it would be necessary to burn hydrocarbon fuel in addition to the Nitrous Oxide and Hydrogen in order to achieve sufficient power. If this is the case then two or three cylinders of a four cylinder engine could be reserved for N2 + 1/2O2 combustion with advanced timing and the remaining cylinders would burn hydrocarbon fuel with normal timing. That is cylinders with different fuels would require different ignition systens. The heat of combustion of hydrocarbon fuel could be collected from the exhast using a heat exchanger and routed back to the engine via the water jacket to supply the heat needed by N2 + 1/2O2 combustion. This would make it an extrememly efficient engine and I would expect outstanding fuel consumption figures like 300 mpg.
The environmental benefits of water cars would include not only a diminuation of harmful emissions and oil consumption. If applied on a large enough scale this technology could actually reverse global warming because heat is being taken out of the environment and converted into kinetic energy. There is a possible environmental risk in the fact that Nitrous Oxide would be leaked into the atmosphere, but this could be minimised by recycling all of the exhaust. Compared to the Nitrogen Dioxide released by normal internal combustion engines Nitrous Oxide is fairly benigh and has even been used as a propellent for spray cans instead of CFCs. |
| 4 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| jkdalive |
Posted - Sep 05 2009 : 7:32:47 PM
HELLO
I HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING THESE POST ACROSS THE NET ... there is something you are misquoting or misunderstanding about how these cell work and .. are connected.
you state that there is a completed circuit where the "pipe" connects with the engine intake.. and this "does something to complete the circuit and build up electrical charge" ... the pipe is not connected directly to the engine .. there is a rubber hose connection between the copper pipe and the engine intake to absorb vibration and to electrically isolate the devise from the negative charged engine block ... connecting the pipe and engine directly would cause disasterous results .. as in directly connecting the positive terminal of your alternator or battery to the engine block .. not good for either let alone think about starting the car with all that arcing going on ...
Please ease up on all the theory and stick to electrical basics for wiring if you intend to be believable in your hypothesis.
thank you.
ps ... my cell is working fine ... i cant explain it either .. but ... i dont really think that is necessary .. it works .. and i like what it does and does not. |
| Freedomfuel |
Posted - Jul 28 2004 : 12:33:38 PM
STRANGER AND STRANGER
It is becoming clear that Dingel does not know how his car really works and that this is why he cannot patent his so called 'invention'. I used to think that he was trying to confuse us with bull**** about heavy water and monatomic hydrogen but it appears that he is genuinely trying to provide plausible explanations for how his car works. However, it is becoming clear that Hydrogen is not crucial to how his system works which makes this topic a bit odd in a Hydrogen forum.
I have reviewed all the evidence on the subject presented on the internet, and I have reached some surprising conclusions. It now seems to be the case that the Joe Cell car is propelled by static electricity and combustion is of secondary importance. This conclusion was reached after examining an experiment by George Wiseman in which he detected an anomoly in the electrolysis of water that causes the production of a 'third gas'. You can read about it here:
http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/whatisbg/watergas.html.
His conclusion is that this third gas is water vapour with an electric charge and that it implodes without producing heat. He has produced data to support this conclusion from himself and others who have repeated his experiment with success. We are not clear yet about what is going on but there are a number of private individuals researching the subject. My hypothesis is that positively charged Hydrogen ions combine with water to produce H(H2O)+, but atmospheric Oxygen may be involved because it does seem to be necessary for the water to be aerated. What appears to happen with the Joe Cell car is that this positively charged water vapour enters the cylinder which is at negative potential and rapidly condenses on the sides of the cylinder causing implosion and cooling. What makes the Joe Cell an advance over other auto electrolysis systems is that it is designed to maximise the production of this 'third gas'. For instance the two unconnected electrodes would interupt the flow of ions in the electrolyte so that this charged water vapour would accumulate on them and having the the positive electrode as the outer case would prevent the charge from leaking away. At this stage we do not know why implosive condensation is endothermic as because it is a fact that condensation is normally exothermic but it is also known that static electricity has a cooling effect.
In addition to drawing on ambient heat throught the radiator to provide the vehicle with energy I have identified another source of energy from the environment that is common to all free energy devices which do not depend on solar energy. Alex Schiffer has observed that some Joe Cells exhibit a pink or blue glow in the air surrounding them in this article:
http://www.nutech2000.com/webtext/joecell/negelec.htm.
This is indicative of a high voltage discharge causing ionisation of the air surounding the cell. It is unlikely to be a corona discharge because this would require a voltage of millions of volts for an object of this size. Therefore it could only be caused by an electron avalanche in the surrounding air rather like that which occurs in low pressure gas discharge tubes when accelerated electrons knock electrons from gas molecules in a chain reaction. No one knows why this electron cascade is often a feature of free energy devices but it is has been observed in the PAGD reactor, the Helix magnetic motor, and the Testatika machine. It could either be self induced or, more likely in my opinion, be induced by the user. The self induced electron cascade would require that the case would be so filled with positively charged water droplets that it would reach a potential of several thousand volts. Since the pipe to the engine acts as conduit of electricity like a cable there would be an electric circuit between the Joe Cell and the engine that would be a pulsed DC current in time with the ignition firing. It has been observed that a high voltage, high frequency pulsed DC applied across a dialectric (and water is a dialectric) causes a phenomenon called 'dialectric absorbtion'. Under these conditions the dialectric will remain partially polarised when the electric field is zero so that each pulse of the electric field applied to it will cause a build up of it's internal charge and a powerful space charge will surround the dialectric and it attracts both electrons and negative charged air molecules towards it as an electron cascade. Here are some links that explain what could be going on:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ufophysics/electroncas.htm
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ufophysics/nonuniformelefields.htm
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ufophysics/dielectrics.htm
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/ufophysics/efg.htm
http://website.lineone.net/~aarekhu/freenotes.htm
Of course we do not know if any of this really applies to water as a dialectric but Doctor Flanagan was of the opinion that his Electron Field Generator could work with a liquid dialectric. Here is an excellent website devoted to the science of water that may provide some clues:
http://www.martin.chaplin.btinternet.co.uk/index.html
The more likely scenario is that the more advanced Joe Cell users have applied a high voltage, high frequency pulsed DC across the electrodes of their cell to induce the same effect. The German Dingle car site confirms that Dingle does use such a system.
How such a phenomenon can take energy out of the environment is a mystery to me because it cannot be something as simple as taking electricity from the air. You can try reading Tom Beardon on negative resistance if you can get your head round such strange concepts as 'time reversal' and electrons going backwards.
This link may provide some insight into 'self organizing' processes that deviate from thermodynamic equilibrium:
On the 'Mystery' Of Differential Negative Resistance
http://home.uaic.ro/seba/the%20mystery%20of%20NDR.pdf
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| Freedomfuel |
Posted - Jul 14 2004 : 05:35:07 AM
Forget everything I have previously written. I have recently being reviewing the evidence for cars running on electrolysis of water and I have reached a surprising conclusion.
Firstly it has been observed that usually in the electrolysis of water most of what is emmited from the cell is water vapour in the form of a fine mist. It seems likely that this water vapour plays a more important role in the functioning of the vehicle than the gases from the electrodes. This hypothesis is supported by Joe's observation that his car would run without without the electricity supply to the cell. There also seems to be a self induced electric discharge involved with practical Joe Cells because Alex Schiffer has observed a pink glow in the air surrounding them. It seems to me that it is possible that this water vapour has an electric charge as it enters the engine. How water droplets obtain an electric charge is uncertain at this time but some clues may be provided by the process of charge separation in thunder clouds. My hypothesis is that as positively charged water vapour enters the cylinder which is at earth potential then the vapour will rapidly condense on the sides of the cylinder bringing about implosion without the production of heat. This hypothesis is supported by Joe's observation that the engine would run without the sparkplugs being connected. If I am right about this it would mean that the Joe Cell car is propelled by static electricity. Recent research by George Wiseman of Eagle Research also supports this hypothesis and his results are at http://www.eagle-research.com/browngas/whatisbg/watergas.html. George has observed the production of a third gas being formed as bubbles between the the electrodes and that when this gas is separated and ignited it implodes with an electric discarge. He has assembled some impressive data to support his observations as well as data from others who have reproduced his experiment.
This hypothesis makes some of the details of Joe Cell construction intelligible. For instance having the outer case of the cell as the positive electrode would confine the positively charged water droplets within the cell. The two outer electrodes which are not connected to the supply would interupt the transport of ions between the positive and negative electrodes so that part of the electron flow would be diverted to the production of bubbles of charged water vapour. To avoid the vapour condensing in the intake manifold it may be necessary to electrically insulate it from the engine block.
How this third gas is formed is not yet known but it may be connected with air dissolved in the water. One theory put forward be a Joe Cell constructer at http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/other_hfsystems.html is that atmospheric Nitrogen combines with ions in the solution to make what he calls Nitrogen Hydroxide (NOH?) and that the main products of this electrolysis is Nitrogen Hydroxide and Oxygen which means that no combustion occurs inside the engine at all. I can accept that this so called Nitrogen Hydroxide is the charge carrier in the water droplets but Nitrogen is a highly inert gas due to it's high temperature of disassociation. At normal ambient temperatures and with low voltages I cannot see how Atmospheric Nitrogen could form any compounds.
The other mystery is why does the battery not discharge while the vehicle is in use? Are we to believe certain Joe Cell advocates that Zero Point Energy or Aether is involved? If energy is supplied from the environment then it could either be ambient heat absorbed through the radiator of ambient electricity from free ions. The later option is what may be providing the power for the Testatika machine. |
| Freedomfuel |
Posted - Jun 25 2004 : 09:05:22 AM
Having thought about it does seem unlikely that Nitrous Oxide could be produced on board a car. Using an electric discharge to produce it would be hard enough in the laboratory but under the bonnet of a car using atmospheric Nitrogen would be impossible. You are more likely to end up with Nitric Oxide which does not support explosive combustion of hydrogen. The only other technique technique that I can think of would be to heat ammonium Nitrate but that is more impracticel than using bottled gas.
My chemistry book says that Nitrous Oxide and Hydrogen will explode at room temperature. If that is so then it may be possible to test my hypothesis that the combustion is an endothermic process and that over 100% efficiency is achieved by absorbing ambient heat by using bottled Nitrous Oxide and Hydrogen. This hypothesis is more plausible than the idea that Hydrogen/Oxygen fuel can be produced on-board using electrolysis. Even if a more efficient catalyst system could be found it seems unlikely that sufficient gas could be produced to supply the power needed.
The only alternative to Nitrous Oxide that I can think of is Ozone. This is easily produced by an electric discharge of either pure Oxygen or atmospheric Oxygen. I do not know anything about how Hydrogen burms with Ozone but I expect thatt it is the same as the Nitrous Oxide/Hydrogen combustion. In the photographs Dingle appears to have separated the Oxygen and Hydrogen and inserted a sparkplug in the Oxygen pipe. A better way to ionize Oxygen is to pass it across two metal plates, one of which is earthed and the other is charged to 10,000 volts. The low pressure caused by the engine's intake stroke would facilitate conversion to Ozone and give a higher yield than the 15% which is normal. This technique may remove the requirement to separate the gases as they leave the electrolyser. This could be achieved by charging the metal container of the electrolyser to 10,000 volts. An alternataive technique would be to pass the gas through a spiral of polythene pipe with a Mercury vapour lamp inside since ultra violet light also turns Oxygen into Ozone. The easiest way of all is to make the electrolyte a Sulphuric acid solution of specific gravity 1.1 (15%). This could be combined with one of the other techniques to improve yield. A considerable amount of water vapour is also produced if the pressure in the electrolyser is affected by the engine's change in displacement. This water vapour, if mixed with the other gases, would absorbe latent heat of evaporation from the combustion making it less powerful. Therefore the gas should be bubbled through another liquid and air filled container to isolate the electrolyser from changes in pressure caused by the engine.
There is environmental issues surrounding either the use of Ozone or Nitrous Oxide in vehicle engines but this danger could be eliminated by recycling the exhaust into the intake. In reality DIY conversions means that this is unlikely to happen.
The free energy skeptics are bound to point out that this system violates the second law of thermodynamics which states that for heat to do work it must move from a high temperature source to a low temperature sink. Consequently a Carnot cycle engine cannot have an exhaust that is lower in temperature than the temperature of the environment. As the source and sink in this case are the same temperature in this case and the exhaust is cooler than the temperature of the surroundings this would appear to make it impossible to extract usefull energy from ambient heat . I have thought long and hard about this issue and I cannot see how such a system could not work even taking these objections into account. One day there will be a grass roots energy revolution when people will take responsibility for how their energy use affects the planet and they will draw 'free energy' from ambient heat and ambient electricity. |
